Sinless?

Posted: September 18, 2010 in Burned By Church, Church, Gay, GLBT, homosexual, Lesbian, LGBT, love
Tags: , , , , , ,

EXPELLEDBefore we start know that I don’t want to fight. I am just going to the place that I believe God wants me to go. It’s ok if it isn’t the path for you. 🙂 You have your path.  I just ask that you have an open mind.

Alright. I posted this on my Facebook profile and have taken a bit of heat for it. “We believe that we can overrule Jesus’ central teaching of LOVE if something we view as SIN is involved” I got the idea from a book I am reading called “Jesus, The Bible and Homosexuality” by Dr. Jack Rogers. He talks about it wasn’t very long ago that the Church believed that slavery was not only acceptable but was God’s will. They even were able to provide scripture to back it up. It wasn’t very long ago that African Americans and women did not have the same rights as white men. We are talking about the 60’s and 70’s not the distant past. The point is that the church thought it was right, biblical and in God’s will, but it wasn’t.  I think we need to be very careful how we behave toward the outside world. We have caused a lot of damage. It seems we ought to known as a people of love and grace but we aren’t. We are seen as judgmental and unloving. Our priority should be Loving GOD and Loving People. It’s really what Jesus said was the most important. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” Mark 12:30-31 niv We really like to classify sin. Even if you are a Christian you still sin. We all sin. (If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8 niv) We just think some sins are worse than others. Sexual sin is the biggest. So you aren’t attracted to members of the same sex, does that make you better because you aren’t tempted? What are you tempted to? How do you do with that? “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Matthew 7:1-3 niv. Sin doesn’t send someone to Hell, it’s your relationship or lack that picks your final destination. Jesus said LOVE. Please lets LOVE. If I’m not a Christian and society says its ok to sleep together before marriage (and it does) what can I possible say that will make someone think sex before marriage is wrong? How about if a person is Gay. Society says its ok. What could I possibly say that would make them not Gay? Nothing. I could say a lot that might make that person think I’m a jerk and even worse than that that God is a jerk. The whole conversation would shut down. I want to introduce them to the God that loves them and died for them even while they (and we) were sinners. He is able to fix whatever he wants. He’s changing me.

Here is a more in depth article if you want to go deeper.

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian

I really do know all of the arguments that you are going to use to dissuade me from believing / acting as I do. I don’t want to argue with you about it. If you are offended and don’t want to read anymore please don’t. I LOVE ya! m

Make sure you read the comments on this blog, we go a lot further with this topic. (the link for the comments is at the top). Also please take the time to do our poll below. It tracks answers not who said what. 🙂

LOVE the Greatest Commandment

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Comments
  1. Betty Adams says:

    I really believe Mike that you said it all. I really believe that those that want to condemn really should take a few days off of the me me me and think about what they are saying and doing under the cover of Christianity. Love is the answer and not just for some people but all of us. Live and let live is my motto. I may not believe everything I hear, but it is their right to say it as it is my right to not believe it. LOVE, LOVE,LOVE THAT IS WHERE ITS AT.

  2. David Carwile says:

    Mike,
    Do you think homosexuality is a sin?
    From what I’ve read about Jack Rogers, he doesn’t believe it is a sin. He thinks “Jesus and the Bible do not condem people who are homosexual” based on his “love God & your neighbor” way of interpreting the Bible. 
    According to Rom 1:18-28 & 32 (CEV)
     I don’t see how anyone could interpret the Bible not condemning homosexuality.  
    18 From heaven God shows how angry he is with all the wicked and evil things that sinful people do to crush the truth. They know everything that can be known about God, because God has shown it all to them. God’s eternal power and character cannot be seen. But from the beginning of creation, God has shown what these are like by all he has made. That’s why those people don’t have any excuse. They know about God, but they don’t honor him or even thank him. Their thoughts are useless, and their stupid minds are in the dark. They claim to be wise, but they are fools. They don’t worship the glorious and eternal God. Instead, they worship idols that are made to look like humans who cannot live forever, and like birds, animals, and reptiles.  
     So God let these people go their own way. They did what they wanted to do, and their filthy thoughts made them do shameful things with their bodies. They gave up the truth about God for a lie, and they worshiped God’s creation instead of God, who will be praised forever. Amen. God let them follow their own evil desires. Women no longer wanted to have sex in a natural way, and they did things with each other that were not natural. Men behaved in the same way. They stopped wanting to have sex with women and had strong desires for sex with other men. They did shameful things with each other, and what has happened to them is punishment for their foolish deeds. Since these people refused even to think about God, he let their useless minds rule over them. That’s why they do all sorts of indecent things. 
    32. They know God has said that anyone who acts this way deserves to die. But they keep on doing evil things, and they even encourage others to do them. 
    Rom 1:18-28 & 32 (CEV)

    • Mike Adams says:

      Hi Dave, That section of scripture is ended in a bad place. If you continue on the next verses are as follows:

      Romans 2
      God’s Judgment of Sin
      1 You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things. 2 And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things. 3 Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God’s judgment when you do the same things? 4 Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin? NLT

      I think these verses head the same direction that the one in Matthew do (“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Matthew 7:1-3 niv.) We are no better than anyone else. We have all done plenty to deserve hell but we who trust Jesus get in on His righteousness not ours. Jesus commanded us to love people.

  3. David Carwile says:

    You didn’t answer my question.
    Do you think homosexuality is a sin? I know a gentleman that was a male prostitute that sold his body to other men. He is now a born again, Spirit filled Christian that thinks homosexuality is a sin.

  4. Mike Adams says:

    Dave, I’m not sure why you want me to say what is sin and what isn’t. Do you think males and females who have sex before marriage can be saved? How about, thieves, the greedy, drunks, slanderers or swindlers. Why is homosexuality the holy grail of sin?

    Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV)

    Meaningless sex whether straight or gay is sinful. A committed loving relationship is another story. Even if we disagree about what is sin, shouldn’t we agree that no matter what we should show people God’s love?

  5. I think it is important to recognise what God says is a sin. This is how we know where we are missing the mark. Homosexual behavior is in the list. We can’t gloss over that. However, this doesn’t give us the right to condem or judge people. Mike you’re right, there are many things we are all doing that still “miss the mark”. Scripture says God began a good work in each of us who believes, and He will be faithful to complete it. In other words, He is the one who will ultimately get us all straightened out. Right now, because of what Jesus did for us all, he is not holding men’s sins against them. “For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation”. 2 CO. 5:19 Belief is all he’s looking for as far as salvation and relationship is concerned. Get in on what Jesus did, and you’re part of the family. Reject what Jesus did and you’re on your own with your missing the mark self! Do we who believe need cleaning up? Of course. But sanctification is a process that is driven and performed by God – he gives us the desire to change. “For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him”. Phil 2:13 For me, homosexuality is sin. I won’t say otherwise. But because of that beautiful complete act on the cross for all of us, those who struggle with that temptation to “miss the mark” can be loved just as those who lie, or cheat, or watch porn. I pray for my homosexual friends, and I expect God to reach their hearts and change them. I’m honest with them about what I see in the scriptures. I’m hoping for change. But I don’t represent God in a way that makes them think he hates them. On the contrary, he loves them and doesn’t want any of them to perish. I’m playing the love card, I’m told it never fails.

  6. David says:

    Mike, outstanding & spirit-filled.
    I think many people get so caught up in the rules and regulations portion of the Bible that they lose sight of the spirit portion, of the love message that trumps everything else. It seems like once we (as a goofy, mixed-up human race) are able to get that love thing down then we can argue about what people do in their bedrooms. But love should come first. Somewhere up there Jesus is saying: “I thought I was pretty clear…”

  7. David Carwile says:

      I don’t have to judge people To see them as homosexuals, drug addicts etc…  They are not ashamed of their lifestyle  But until the drug addict, drunk, thief, homosexual, wife beater etc… admits they have a problem, you will not be able to help them, other than praying. I was watching GODTV a couple of weeks ago and they were showing a prayer rally from California. They were praying for the gay community in California to be changed. A man came on the stage that had been a homosexual. He became born again but still lived the homosexual lifestyle. One night as he was praying he asked GOD to deliver him from homosexuality. Immediately, yes immediately the lust for other men left his body. But it didn’t take long for the devil (Jn 10:10) to try to put that back on him. At first it was very hard to resist the temptation  But the Word says to submit yourself unto the Lord, resist the devil & he must flee.  (James 4:7  KJV) And the more time he spent with God the easier it was to resist the devil. 
    Why the story? 
    This man wanted to change. He believed 2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV) Therefore if any man[ be] in Christ,[ he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. The people Mike is with don’t want to change. They write books & form churches to be surrounded by like minded. They don’t consider homosexuality a sin. Your agreeing with them does more damage than good. You’re compromising the Word of God. Jesus walked in love but didn’t change what He believed so He wouldn’t offend people. He made people mad just about everywhere He went. So mad that they crucified Him. 
    Stephen in Acts 7:57-60 (CEV)
     The council members shouted and covered their ears. At once they all attacked Stephen and dragged him out of the city. Then they started throwing stones at him… As Stephen was being stoned to death, he called out, “Lord Jesus, please welcome me!” He knelt down and shouted, “Lord, don’t blame them for what they have done.” Then he died.  
    He loved people till the end but wouldn’t compromise the Word of God. Even some of your friends believe that homosexuality is a sin. Do you? 

  8. Mike Adams says:

    No, Dave I don’t believe homosexuality in a committed relationship is a sin. Even if I believed that it was I know that you can be saved with sin in your life. If it wasn’t true we would all be in trouble. I think Collen nailed it when she spoke of sanctification. We as, Christians should be becoming more Christlike as He changes us from the inside. When you first believed did all your sin immediately stop. No. We are Justified when we believed so God sees us as if we never sinned but that doesn’t mean sin stopped when we were saved. So what is the specific time-line as to when each specific sin should fall away? Who knows? I think God handles all of that.

    Here is what I believe:

    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13 (KJV)

    But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8 (NIV)

  9. Ken says:

    I truly believe your stance and voice are becoming more solidified under His will. Keep sharing your faith, testing it against scripture and His guidance; remembering to glorify Him.

    The point has been made by this post. Those that don’t hear, aren’t meant to hear the message, right now.

  10. Brett says:

    Mike, I love your heart in this. I think there IS a better way for the church and Christ followers to respond to homosexuality. However, for me the line has to be drawn that any sex outside of God’s design is sin. If we do not agree on that issue, then we will not be able to agree on the subsequent questions.

    Do I believe that homosexuals can be saved? Of course…no question. I believe that many ARE saved. They have put their faith in Jesus Christ and are redeemed. Here is the question that has to be answered though. In receiving the Holy Spirit into their lives at the moment of true repentance and salvation, how then does the homosexual continue wholeheartedly and without conviction in a lifestyle contrary to the spirit within him/her? If you dont agree that it is sin though, this becomes a non issue I guess.

    To me, the evidence in scripture when taken as a whole lends itself to the idea that sexual contact outside the bounds of marriage the way God started it (man/woman, an obviously God designed plumbing issue :)) is sinful, and there is forgiveness for it in repentance…which means the behavior stops.

    As far as the judgment issue goes…I would probably say the best course is to guide the unbelieving homosexual gently toward understanding what God’s design is for relationships. However for the professed believers we are to be firm and dare I say ‘judgmental’ in order to bring them back into a repentant attitude. That is the way Jesus did it, scripture mandates, and us to follow.

    Not an easy thing to deal with, and these are MY convictions. If you feel the Holy Spirit leading you to minister to the LGBT community then I am behind you 100%, but I hope that you love them enough to guide them to truth.

    • Mike Adams says:

      Hey Brett. I appreciate the comment and the thought that went into everything you guys said. I still wonder how much of the conviction process is ours and how much is God’s. I think for the most part we have made Him look so bad by our behavior that it is hard for the LBGT community to even get close to the God that they feel hates them.

      • Brett says:

        I agree with you Mike that we have made him look bad. But we dont pay for that sin by accommodating the sin of LGBT. We repent for ours and then help them repent from theirs.

        When a couple comes in for counseling that is broken by adultery do we turn them away? No, of course not. But we do steer them towards repentance. Ultimately the most important thing is their relationship to God, not their relationship to each other. When a homosexual couple enters our churches they should be treated the same. Sin is pointed out and we steer them to a relationship with God. This is one of the problems with the LGBT community who calls themselves Christians…they put their sexual identity above their kingdom identity. they want both/and. Are they pre-disposed to homosexuality? I dont know, but I do know that if they are Christ followers they have the holy spirits power available to still live and not sin…EVEN in their genetic predispositions, if they are such. I deeply feel for them if this is the situation that they live with…the sexual tendencies. But that doesn’t excuse their actions. I kinda believe that Jesus might have said “Blessed is the homosexual who chooses to follow after Me instead of the call of his desires for he shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

        Our identities must be found in Christ, not our sexuality or any other disposition. But again, this is a moot point if you cannot bring yourself to say that the acts of the LGBT is sin.

        I love the people that are in the LBGT community. I really do, but if it comes down to offending God or offending them. I choose offending them….

      • Mike Adams says:

        Hi Brett. I do appreciate your point of view even if we disagree and I don’t think you are unloving. I can hear your heart for people. Most of the people I know are pretty uncomfortable with the thought that homosexuality is not sin. I’m learning. It’s kind of like when I was first saved. I knew I believed but wasn’t completely sure I knew why. Little by little I learned the Why’s. Now I believe homosexuality (in a committed relationship) is not sin but don’t completely know why. It’s coming as I read and listen to the Spirit. It’s tricky and I know most people don’t agree but It wasn’t long ago that the church thought slavery was not only God’s will but the best for the slaves themseves. I’m working on a post with reasons with scripture references that i hope you will look at and comment on. Love ya Brother, m

  11. Michele Martino says:

    Hi Mike,

    You asked me for my feedback on this via twitter and I’m almost hesitant to get involved with this, not because I’m afraid of stating my beliefs but because I feel that it is possible that it won’t make much of a difference unless all of us, that includes you, have an open mind and are humble enough to accept the fact that our views are wrong. Part of me also wants to think that you want this discussion to happen for the sake of debate and the chance to prove you’re points as opposed to having the opportunity to glorify God and for those thoughts I ask your forgiveness. I strive to assume that people have the best intentions but sometimes I fail.

    There is a big debate going on in the Christian community right now between rules and regulations and the message of love. For some reason, people take to either of these sides with an extreme and I’m not sure that is the message God wants to send across. You see, God gives us rules to live by and He calls us to obey them and He also calls us to love people in an extravagant way. (1 John 5:2) But do we sacrifice obeying His commands so that we may love others? You can’t have one or the other because God made them to go together. If we choose one or the other then we are cheapening the message of the Cross.

    As far as homosexuality is concerned, it is a sin in any form- committed relationship or not. You can’t dance around that fact. We can’t pick and choose which parts of the Bible we want to live by and which we want to change, it is inerrant and authoritative. However, homosexuality is just as much a sin as getting drunk, looking at porn, murder, lying, greed, being disobedient, etc.

    So what then do we do when we are faced with the opportunity to love someone who is living in one or more of these sins? Do we go and rally and hold up abrasive signs and shout cruel words at people in the hopes that they will be scared into heaven? Absolutely not! Jesus died on the cross for us because He loves us for who we are, right in this very moment. In the same way, we are to love others for who they are in the moment. That does not mean that we condone sin by any means, however it does mean that we show them a love that is unconditional. We show them a love that has no boundaries and through that love and through the integrity we build by following and submitting to God’s commands, doors open for people to see that there is a God who wants to love His people. The way we live our lives should echo that call. We are here to bring heaven to earth and we are here to represent the King of Kings. There has to be a balance and there has to be integrity and there has to be love.

  12. Mike Adams says:

    Alright, I think I am done beating this dead horse. I know that whatever side we are on we are going to stay on and that is OK. I just hope we can find a little compassion, empathy and show some of the grace we have received to the LGBT community. I also hope that some of you might pick up Dr. Jack Rogers book ” Jesus, The Bible and Homosexuality. Dr. Rogers is a straight Presbyterian Professor of Theology.

    Here is his webpage:
    http://www.drjackrogers.com/

    and a link to the book:
    http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Bible-Homosexuality-Explode-Church/dp/0664229395

  13. Beryl Pierce says:

    I feel that after reading almost all of the above posts by many intellectuals and obviously well read and well educated biblically people I will go back to the most important thing I received from Christ. Not from various interpretations by his culture while he was here but directly from him. Love one another and leave the little stuff to God.

    My truly best to you all, Beryl aka Lacebay aka Lyladear.

  14. Beryl Pierce says:

    Any typos and misspelled words are due to my short term memory loss and my age (75).

    Thanks again. Beryl

  15. Sarah says:

    Mike, I think whoever you are quoting was grossly misinformed. I don’t know of ANY church in History that ever condoned slavery, and when you say The Church, exactly which Church are you referring to? Often, people tend to confuse followers of a particular church as the Church itself.

    I know many Catholics may have been slave owners, but the Church never condoned. Same as today, many Catholics use birth control, practice homosexuality and get abortions. Just becaus those Catholics are doing it does not mean that that is what the Church teaches.

    In fact, the Catholic Church’s teachings on Slavery were quite complicated. I think you would find these two articles rather interesting:

    http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0006.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery

    That is not to say that I find this particular denomination to be better than others, just as a Christian, this is what I was taught and this is what I know about the history of slavery.

    It is also interesting to note that while Anglo Protestant societies never mixed with the Natives or “slaves” it was the Spanish Catholic countries that ended up being the most racially mixed societies.

    That said, just because a few Christians were slave owners does not mean that most Christian denominations encouraged slavery. Keep in mind that the Vice President of the South was a practicing Jew and owned slaves. Some Islamic countries were notorious for owning Slaves, but does this have to do with their religion but more to do witht their wealth and power that got the better of some individuals using the name of religion.

    I don’t see how you could compare the matter of homosexuality.

    I have tried to reconcile this subject in my head, for the sake of not being hated and for the sake of not being politically incorrect, but something kept nagging me at the back of the head. Conscience tells me that homosexual behavior is wrong and no one can convince me otherwise.

    It also opens a whole other can of worms. If homosexuality is not a sin, then is pedophilia, or bestiality or polygamy? I mean, all of those are sexual orientations and who are we say that those individuals were not born with a certain tendancy to be attracted to something out of the norm.

    I hope you don’t judge me. Don’t see me as a bad Christian, but I just cannot and never will see the merit of homosexuality. I do think its a sin and I do not believe Christ would have promoted it. Maybe he would not have judged them, I will give you that, but saying that it is not a sin as long as they are in a committed relationship, sorry, I just cannot wrap my head around. That nagging conscience tells me otherwise.

    • Mike Adams says:

      Wow. That is a fun way to start a discussion. I don’t really want to debate or argue with you and in your post you said that nothing could change your mind, which is as good an argument as any to not to press on but against my better judgment. Here we go…

      No matter what you believe about history the point is that there are things that the Church (The body of Christ, not a denomination) has believed and acted upon flawed interpretation of the bible. I believe the Bible to be inerrant but believe man’s interpretation of it to be errant. The bible isn’t the 4th person of the trinity and without constant guidance by the Holy Spirit you can abuse it. Even today in many evangelical churches women are not allowed to be in leadership because of a bad interpretation/translation of these verses “But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet, For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.” (1 Tim. 2:12-13). I disagree. God used plenty of women in leadership roles throughout the bible and He still does. The point is, the Church was wrong in the past, is wrong now and could be wrong again.

      I pray that God keeps the words pedophilia and bestiality in context with homosexuality out of the mouths of anyone who says they are a Christian. It has nothing to do with anything. It’s none of our business what adults do with one another.

      here is info on Christianity & Slavery:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_slavery

  16. Sarah says:

    That said, does not mean I hate anyone or want to condemn anyone to Hell 🙂 That in itself is in God’s hands.

  17. Mike Adams says:

    Alright, feel free to comment but my reply will be in the form of a blog entry. Live Loved, m

  18. Sarah says:

    Thanks for the link Mike, interesting read 🙂

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